Minimal Wave Records

An interview with Michael Gross, from the legendary Philly based band Experimental Products active in the early 80s’ new wave scene.  Also known for their “Prototype” LP from 1982.

Thank-you for your interest in Experimental Products….and…. Thank-you for the opportunity to share info of myself and the band’s music…Your many questions will no doubt test my writing skills….. ( I’m dot crazy as you’ll see)...I’ll try keeping to the facts… Indulge in personal opinions here and there….Any questions…. or influences pertaining to Mark Wilde….I will answer the best I can…..

1. Where are you from originally Michael? And what was the music scene like growing up there?

Born in Ohio…1955…..  In 1961…family moved to Wilmington, Delaware….Delaware was very conservative… very typical suburbain upbringing…. No music “scene” to speak of….As a kid in the 60s….. the local AM radio station was the only music link…AM pop offered a variety of music… different sounds….styles….Black, white, female, male, solo, groups…  anything went…..as long as it entertained…Some silly….. some moving…. all heard many times through-out the day as the playlist cycled…..Catchy meodies and hooks were forced into a 3 minute format…. No wasted energy….By graduation….. FM radio was just starting up…..  AOR format becoming more popular….

2. What music or bands were most inspiring to you growing up?

I graduated High School in 1973….  AM radio was still being listened to on car radios…But…besides the FM option…....the latest music format was 8-track tapes…Like typical 20th/21st century teenagers the car was a main “party” device/environment….The 8-track player made it possible for us to choose the music…. not the radio DJ…...Anything was plugged in…...but I gravitated toward the “Progressive Rock” sound….Jethro Tull, Yes, Genesis, ELP, Moody Blues, Gentle Giant…. ect…Rock musicians / technicians with a clasical music bias… long album cuts…..a bit pretentious…

The synthesizer made it’s initial impression with the song…... Frankenstein… by Edgar Winter….It was the only song I would listen to on that 8-track tape….. ~ The middle break…wild synth action…sawtooth pulses…stereo jumps…high res… sweeping filters….......analog delay…..with the powerfull exit….. it blew our tiny, little, demented minds away…. ( maybe subconcious…. future influence ..... ? )

3. Did you grow up surrounded by music? Can you tell us a bit about your family background and how it may have affected your music?

My parents were not very musical…..some show-tunes LP….They would dance…polka at parties. The church organ on Sundays was grinding..wandering….uninspiring…..Typical public-school music training…. trumpet….with braces…. larger mouthpiece baritone horn…A year in the high school marching band opened my eyes to the power of drums….Drum-lines… providing a military style cadence can be very impressive…..The overly-tight….. tin-can sounding snares are fine…. but don’t have any bottom end… We had older type snares… not so tight….. they had longer profiles…. tuned lower…..The percussive result vibrates right thru you…...Bass-drum beat….snare fills with closed cymbal backbeat….. ( future drum-machine fetish…? )Music… not a great passion… I quit band.. !  Played on the football team my last two years… ~

By the late 70s….  progressive rock bands had lost steam….  While acquiring an associates degree in electronics in Dallas, Texas….the local public access radio station fed my non-commercial musical needs by introducing…....
Brian Eno and that whole gang…Roxy/Cale….Clearlight Orch…. Gong… etc….They were still on the progressive side….but not so “technician” like…. and sometimes a little weird…anything from Europe…...anything obscure…....  with a decent album cover…..anything not…...... Peter Frampton or Eagles or FleetwoodMac…

4. How did you first meet Mark Wilde and form Experimental Products?

Back in Delaware….. a full time job…. and…. Non-Musicianship had finally convinced me…...I needed a toy…..!  Being an electronic tech….  and influenced by Eno… I thought…. synthesizer….In 1979/80 I went to a local music shop…. after surveying the options I chose a Korg MS-20….Not too expensive….upright….plugs….knobs….keys….. Korg…..cool…..!  OK…how does it work….? After a few weeks of making wind…..and surf sounds…..and…..after finding out how an amplified oscillator can tear the back of your head off…..I saw an ad in the local newspaper…..“power pop band seeks synthesizer player…..“Knowing my limitations…. I called…. arraigned a meeting….about 8 miles N95 to Claymont, De. Mark’s parents basement….. Mark..vocal, guitar Marilyn…bass and Richard…drums   The Snots…..I was still in post-hippie…. progressive mode….. Longish hair…mustache…. etc…Their “punkish” attire may have caused me doubt…. however the energy was positive… charming….The suburban locality….passing thru kitchen….. meeting Mark’s parents on way to basement….both friendly….. supportive….I sat and listened to their set… Fast moving…. well crafted…  my music meter was impressed… They were about 5 or 6 years younger….  After they played…. I plugged in the Korg….. Made some surf and wind sounds…..... Mark asked me back….. He nursed me along…. I think he just wanted to play with the Korg again….. ~  That’s how Mark and I met… The Snots…..  aka…  Twilight People produced a 7” 4 song EP in 1980…..broke up….1981…. Mark and I slowly drifted back together…..... Interest in synthesizers….. more experience…... musical chemistry…... friendship…. respect….. These were our building blocks…......  ( oh ...and a full time job ... ) Many jam sessions were held in bedrooms….  synths… drum-machine…. tech/sync basics…...The company where I was employed had a business/engineering site named….. The Experimental Station…....I was an electronic tech in an engineering group called….. New Products Engineering…. The word “prototype” was used quite often around work…..  Fulltime jobs sometimes can offer more than just a paycheck…....

5. Who handled the vocals and the electronics?

For Prototype….. The person broaching the song handled general song direction…..Vocals…. synth voicing….. veto power ..... the other would fill the gaps…...
Some songs we wrote together….. New Project… Nightmares 1-2, Street Walk…Mark had purer vocals….  natural keyboard ability….  music/chord structure strengths…  I had wavering lower register vocals…. synth sound experience…. non-music attitude….  Allot of collaboration went on…. We would bounce off each others cues .....Korg-55 drum-machine….Casio MT-30 for chords….. Korg MS-20…. bass/lead/effects…Korg Micro Preset….. bass/lead….    Those were the predominate instruments used….

6. What was your approach to lyric writing? Tell us what Clear Image is about.

Lyrics can either be…. very easy… or….. very hard….... Kinda like right now…..Is anyone still reading this…..?  Am I rambling….?  Will this be read by Eno…? (gush)..... actually…..I ended my Eno worship around 82….. but I admit… He and John Cale were a big influence…I’ll grab random phrases and make them fit….or agonize over a measure’s syllable count…..
Lyrics can be quite fulfilling ....  what they say…. yes…...  but also…. how they sound….Clear Image are Mark’s lyrics…...  I think it’s about strange visitations by some… one…. thing…? Apparently….. visitations only reserved for Mark….  ~
Mark turned me onto… Ultravox… John Fox… Midge Ure…. Depeche Mode…...So you know where his head was at….. His lyrics were always well suited to the music…  narrative…. introspective… haunted…. I enjoy lyrics/music with dramatic/unconventional flare.. but am not against the pop format concept… Writing….. either lyrics or music… should have no set rules….. It boils down to taste….

7. There are some gorgeous arrangements and melodies on “Prototype.” What is the story behind the album?

Sometime around 1981….. work-mate/landlord Rick Baker built a garage recording studio….He bought-out the very 8-track studio that the Twilight People recorded at…He assembled….. Teac 80-8, 1/2” 8-track reel .... Technics 1500 1/4” 2-track mix-down reel….Carvin 16ch 8bus mixer…. a very nice akg 414 EB vocal microphone… a spring reverb…..all… semi-pro… at best… (this same recording equipment followed Experimental Products around)..Rick figured we would eventually book some time in his garage studio….  we did…...Prototype was intended as some kind of calling card for the band… made of vinyl… made cheaply…Somewhere along the way we decided….. make it 12”.... make it a LP…. a vanity project….?  ~300 12” vinyl records were pressed…. covers were hand silk-screened… spray-glued to jackets….The recording sessions progressed slowly… as material was written…. solidified…This slow….. unpressured recording process helped craft the record… not rush it…We both liked the…. all synth/drum-machine…. duo…. concept. Gorgeous arrangements were most likely Mark….. He had good chord progression sense….I’d use him when full lush chords were needed….. Multiple monophonic parts are my strength…We shared a Prog-Rock appreciation of the lush… vocal/string…. almost unearthly sound of the Mellotron…Our MT-30 was coaxed into sounding lush…. Mellotron-ish….. Prototype’s master tape was completed mid 1982…. 10 songs recorded/mixed in an amateur 8-track garage studio… a scene ripe for failure…No test tones….no compression…limiting….ect….  We did our best to create what we thought was an acceptable master….The plate mastering engineer was not impressed….. Maybe he was just having a bad day…..Prototype’s signal level is rather low…. The 300 vinyl 12” pressings were/are noisy….imperfect…Faced with the album cover issue…..  Low funds and a new hobbie led to silk-screened covers…LP records/cds are sometimes noted for song selection and the order they are placed….. I think Prototype has a nice flow….. It had no conceptual intentions…. Other than all synth….

8. Were any demos recorded before Prototype?

Very few…..  there are a couple song idea sessions that did’nt make Protoype…..Up to that point any recordings/practice sessions were a microphone feeding a cassette…“Einstein”....  was a song we jammed on, messing around with the 8-track….Mark sings… In German?... making up German sounding words…..  There are unreleased….1982-1986 “Garage”/demo tracks that I see as a CD/vinyl project… Apparently I’m still inflicted with the need to share music with the world…  even garage tracks.. 

9. Were you aiming to write any sure-fire pop hits, or were you aiming for the dance floor?

I saw Prototype as AOR with synths…. edgy art/pop…. some of my first songs ever written…Mark the veteran songster saw hits…..  whatever song he wrote…  ~  He loved and his songs…. and wanted them heard…. he knew he had writing talent….Mark saw Modern Living as Prototype’s .......  hit/dance track…. The dance club inspired…. 12” single concept… was still new to me….  not Mark…. Modern Living was arranged/mixed extended track style…. with a middle break…. ect….“Glowing in the Dark” was a Mark tune…..  a song that begged to be an “extended” dance track….After a couple weekend practice sessions…. jamming on Glowing in the Dark… I was sold….If a song like Glowing could get a shot on dance floors…. I say…. “What the fuck… Let’s dance…! ”  Such a thought would be considered “shallow” in my “Progressive Rock” days…..

10. What image do you think your music conveys?

Visions of .... Tenex stiffened, big haired, new wave babes in black…. fair skinned synth boys…  and…Well crafted offerings that shoot to please…. but take some chances…. intelligent pop….. (elitist…. Prog rock residue)  But….. We took the band’s name because it offered music alternatives..Experimental Products had an “experimental” music side… Electronic, instrumental, synth wildness…Tangerine Dream-like…... Jarre…. Cluster…. ect….  Mark and I could jam with synched drum-mach, synths…. without any practice/ prep…Free-form jamming was a refreshment…...  Pop… dance…. commercial trappings left behind….  We knew our synths… each other…. We dug spontaneous sound-scapes…Live college radio gigs…...  documentary video music scores (inspiration for Kip Jones).... Some recordings exist of such performances…..  perhaps… future “garage track” release…?

11. Glowing in the Dark is enjoying a renewed popularity and appeared on a DJ Hell compilation. Please tell us the story behind this amazing track.

Early 1984 Rick got out of the garage studio business…..I bought the bulk of his 8-track equipment….  mixer… 2-track… mics… ect….Glowing in the Dark…. like Prototype…. was recorded with this same recording gear…..My basement…...or extra bedroom….. was our studio…  A luxury of no pressure recording….Mark had some interesting songs….. I still had a full-time job….. a vinyl 12” EP seemed natural….a-side…. Glowing in the Dark (long 9 min. track)....  b-side…..Love Changes….The Mannequin….Recording sessions were fruitful….... the master tape completed…...  spirits high…....  until…...The mastering/pressing plant returned the tape noting….. it’s high end was missing…..Muffled…..“like a wet blanket was covering it”.......  We needed to re-mix the EP…...Chip-Dish…. (Marcoccia).....  Philly DJ… club system guru….. was brought in to help re-mix…..Extra equalizers…. high end punched up….  second mix attempt became the present vinyl version…2000 EPs pressed…..  Bill Mutchler…... Ex.Prods. visualist provided the record cover art-work….Shooting for dance club play…. DJ record pools were serviced…..... expectations were…guarded…. Glowing in the Dark…. despite it’s humble roots…... began showing up on club dance charts…..! East coast…. mid-lands….. west-coast…... the song had struck a nerve….. scratched an itch….Experimental Products was sharing time on the floor with the “major” dance-bands of the day….It was a most satisfying project with unexpected results… our music noticed… egos stroked…. Rock Stardom…...  only a matter of time…..  ~

12. There is a wonderful section in the middle of “Glowing in the Dark” that features an assortment of electronic sounds. Whose idea was that?

The middle break in Glowing…. was a result of our synth jamming sessions…Synthesizes were used as sound/effect generators on Prototype…  It was a refined/older idea….The random “computer-like” high-res sequence was created by a Roland SH-101…. thru delay…..It’s a clasic sound….. computer, space, technology…... perhaps in pre-meltdown?Other break synth sounds were just screwy, weird drones…. punched in and out of the mix…. The break is about a minute long… it was minimal…. yet… effective… Glowing in the Dark is 9 minutes… It’s long opening and middle break gave DJs mixing options….It’s length was a bit excessive .... DJs found the middle break a good time to mix in the next tune… 

13. We believe the final Experimental Products release was “Experiment.” Is that correct?

The Experiment! 12” was a final release of new material…...  so far…..It was recorded in Philadelphia….  Studio 4…  24 track studio….  ChipDish arranged for Experimental Products to record there.. .no $ cost…. no $ return…  ~We had been working with a Yamaha QX1 midi sequencer….. and an Ensoniq Mirage ...A lot of triggered big drum studio quality samples were being triggered by our meager DrumTracks…The songs were co-written .... Mark’s death occurred not long after recording vocals on Experiment! He never got to see the 12” release…. Perhaps in after-life dance clubs… ? It was nice to get out of the bed-room studio for a change….. Record with pro gear… Of course this can lead to excess…. but that’s what we were after…..  at least I was….I had been listening to dance tracks produced by ..... Arthur Baker and Trevor Horn….ect… and bands….Propaganda….. Frankie goes to Hollywood….  Alphaville….  A-Ha(gasp)... Nina Hagan…. Dead or Alive…Extended mixes of LP songs were sought out….. more so than the LP itself…...Over the top, clever, excess…. had to be balanced by an appealing song buried somewhere within… Long lost progressive attitudes were being revisited…. minimal was a dirty word… ~ Hi-NRG… dance environments were sought…. not shunned…. Midi made this possible….The number of 12” records of Experiment! released are unknown…... Experiment!... and b-side…. Who is Kip Jones?  were fine efforts…. Experiment!  charted in the dance clubs… Mark’s exit nixed any plans to support the record’s release. I like tasty hi-NRG dance tracks….  I have to remind myself sometimes….... minimal….... is good…. not bad….

14. Where did Experimental Products tour?

Our tours never left the Philly area .....  ~    Never had pro music biz management…

15. What equipment did you use for your live shows?

Early show memories fade with each passing year….. We were busy boys on a synth mission….  I can recall…... performances laced with moments of great satisfaction and great floods of flop-sweat… Our Protoype-years live gear included….. Korg MS-20… Korg Polysix… Roland SH-101…Sequential Pro-One….  Casio MT-30…. Korg 55… Roland CR-8000 ...The synth’s onboard sequencers were triggered by drum-machines….Of course….a songs sequence must be manually entered before a song could begin….  so…A song’s finish was followed by stretches of awkward sequence entering to Pro-One and SH-101…We would fill these awkward silent pre-song acrobatics with a Kitaro… Silk Road cassette….But…. every now and then…. once a song did start….. we could cook….Soon after Prototype Bill Mutchler joined the band providing visual treatments….His musical talents were matched only by his engaging sense of light and color…..Bill would listen to us practice…. and piece together a slide projection show…..Mark and I were grateful for any live support…..  Duos can be a bit straining…. Bill was fresh-air… The Glowing-period live perfomances were beefed up with an added member… Michael Simmons….Michael S. a fellow audio/synthoid had nice songs of his own…. He lightened Mark’s synth chores…. Songs still relied on drum-machine sync to synth sequencers…. We were never practiced enough…Mostly weekend practices….. We were trying….. A bit unfocussed…. Lots of synth issues….Pre-song sequencing remained…  non-minimal, non preprogramed ambitions led to frustration….. Frustrations with band sound… band direction…. were always cured weekend evenings…..Philly offered some charming post-disco…. alternative…. “new-wave”... dance clubs… Friend, DJ, Chip Marcoccia ... aka Chip-Dish provided a full access… “insider” club experience .... The music scene was in flux…..... The clubs took advantage by offering something for everyone… Miami Vice thuggery mixed with art school apathy…  Style is sought… but not mandatory….. South Philly buds cruising new wave babes..  non-swish Center City gays…  cruising straight? guys… Rap… hip-hop…. was still young…. not the multi culture influence it holds today….  The clubs were mostly clean… any ware and tear hidden by low lighting….  ah….  the 80’s…..
I’m being sentimental…. I know…..For me…....  the 80’s is special because of it’s most unique character…... it’s sense of humor… I did see an amusing Ludicrus? video….  with the big forearms….. “you don’t know me like that” ....  Hold on…..  I have to take 2 blue pills…. 4 green ones….  and…. half a purple one….....  brb….  During the summer of 1986…. we had added a QX1 midi sequencer…. and Two! new members…..Michael S. left for greener pastures…..  The synth “duo” concept always proved chancy on-stage….Musicians were sought…. Jerry Lester…DX7, Prophet 5… and…. Max…Ensoniq Mirage were found…Mark W. was lead vocal… freed from synth duties… He did play guitar in some songs….I was behind PolySix, Mirage, Sh-101, Drumtracks, QX1….Philadelphia provided an awesome factory size practice studio for a home-base…Songs were worked on…  Pre-song silences were eliminated… Allot of work and play that year…Experimental Products was finally achieving… confidant… live performance chops ...By year end…. with a record release due…. Mark was off on his unearthly adventure… Jerry and Max were let go…  Experimental Products went on sabbatical….  not retirement….

16. Do any songs from your career give you a particular satisfaction?

From Prototype…..  all the lead synths with accompanying noise/note clusters…. and…. the mini-keyboard,  Casio MT-30….  providing lush…. attractive chords…..Feeling Left Out…...  was my effort of making a song out of nothing….Glowing.. bass synth stabs….  b-side Mannequin a fav….. with it’s synth/female vocal performance…..  Who is Kip Jones?.....  A marathon midi programming session on the QX1 was time well spent…

17. Marc Wilde’s death in 1987 was untimely and must have been difficult for you. Did you continue to write any music from that point forward?

I consider myself fortunate to have crossed paths with Mark… I’m grateful he gave me a “first break”... becoming a member of the Snots… (Twilight People)...Little did he know what he helped unleash… I found a musical sense… synth style… confidence…  He was the leader of the Twilight People… I found his music writing ability intriguing… tasteful…His vocal work was topped…. only by his guitar playing….  rhythm…. lead… a very talented guy….Mark started requesting me to play chords on his songs instead of my adopted mono style…Newly gained musical confidence (thanks to Mark) made it just impossible to contemplate chords…! I quit the band….!    Quitting….. made Experimental Products possible ...... During our “separation” we always stayed in touch…. curious…. checking each others progress…When the opportunity for us to once again work together…  Mark agreed to band co-leadership… Common musical tastes were meshed from varying degrees of attack…  Chord and Mono united… We became a two headed monster…. Probing… testing…. taking no prisoners…. uncompromising… Mark’s death left too big of a void to consider salvaging the work of the past year ....Band mates Jerry and Max were set free…... Experimental Products hibernated…..Experiment! 12” was released…unsupported…..  I had been writing new songs without Mark…I reformed the band….  I found two singers…. male lead… and…. female back-up/lead….I was the leader of Experimental Products….. writing…. arranging…. the monster was alive and well….We did a killer version of Glowing in the Dark…..  We also performed Experiment!......I did continue to write….  I slowed down after the 3-some break-up… Midi programming burn-out….Experimental Products…slept thru the 90’s….. I dropped out… I kept my synths quiet…The growing roar of the synth avalanche would have drowned them out anyway….There are new…....  and old…....  Experimental Products songs that need releasing…....

18. Experimental Products music was ahead of its time and seems ripe for rediscovery. Do you feel an affinity with today’s generation of listeners?

Experimental Products may not be every bodies cup of tea…..  We did our best to please ourselves….. Hoping others would notice our effort .....We liked to write songs with lyrics…  sometimes standard song construction… sometimes not….Upbeat is norm…. ambient is in the playbook…..We used synths….  synth technology virtual or hardware is commonly used today…..Experimental Products type sound is obtainable today… no doubt….Listeners…... are my favorite people…....  They show true grit…..Rejecting mass media…. seeking the obscure…. hopefully finding music that you like… not told to like….It’s become a quirk of every generation…I do feel that todays younger…. new music listeners looking for a sound to grab onto…. have a big job….To go back…. and find past music that influenced todays music…  it’s a scary task for the adventurous….If todays generation finds todays “hip” music wanting…...  They can go back….. or find todays “alternative”.... Is hip-hop cool….?  sure it is…  but not every hip-hop song is cool… Has “Drum and Bass” become todays Peter Frampton…..?  over saturated…..? Geogorian chants….  Show tunes…. early country western….... bubble gum pop…. all need to be heard…..What if Beach Boy harmony is like a warm fuzzy math problem…..  and you see the world anew…......or perhaps….... Peter Frampton’s talk-box guitar…... speaks to you…...  god knows it did to me…... I say…....  Do what thou wilt…...  Buy my record….. ! 

19. Any plans or ambitions for the next couple years?

Solo live act….Tour Europe…...Make out with Kate Bush…  Summer vacation in Spokane…Write a screen play… re-make of popular 1939 adventure flick….. 

20. How you think technology has affected music creation these days and do you welcome the changes? What do you listen to these days?

I say….  Listen to…..  and….. Create what thou wilt…...  Try to make it somewhat original…..  It will have your mark….  Try to keep it simple… at first….Hope to latch onto people who have some musical….magical….. link…..Take it slow…..  trust your instincts…..  compromise rarely….. unless amongst magical friends…. Music created from the heart doesn’t need an audience…. other than the creator…...Who cares if anyone else hears it…?  Right..?  Music is…  vibration…. free…..  life…...Did I just say what I think I said….?  What a load of crap…....! My driving forces in creating music were….....  sanity…. money…  fame…. and seducing women….A quick observation from me….. a non DJ….. “musician?”....    a shoot from the hip reaction….Most DJs can provide music… mixing between two turntables…..Some DJs have their fingers on the pulse of cultural trends….. and can sway opinion…Few can write….

May you all Glow in peace…......

Michael Gross